{"id":1172,"date":"2021-12-17T15:25:00","date_gmt":"2021-12-17T23:25:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/dornsife.usc.edu\/news\/stories\/a-cosmic-conversation\/"},"modified":"2026-03-27T19:59:41","modified_gmt":"2026-03-28T02:59:41","slug":"a-cosmic-conversation","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/dornsife.usc.edu\/news\/stories\/a-cosmic-conversation\/","title":{"rendered":"A Cosmic Conversation"},"content":{"rendered":"\n\n\n    \n                                \n\n  \n    \n\n\n\n\n\n\n<div\n  class=\"cc--component-container cc--article-hero \"\n\n  \n  \n  \n  \n  \n  \n  >\n  <div class=\"c--component c--article-hero\"\n    \n      >\n\n    \n<div class=\"inner-wrapper\">\n          \n<div class=\"f--field f--image\">\n\n    \n    \n    \n    \n    \n    \n              \n      <img\n                            data-src=\"https:\/\/dornsife.usc.edu\/news\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/7\/2023\/04\/story-3604-768x432.jpg\"\n          data-srcset=\"https:\/\/dornsife.usc.edu\/news\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/7\/2023\/04\/story-3604-768x432.jpg 768w\"          data-sizes=\"(min-width:1200px) 75vw, (min-width:768px) 83vw, 100vw\"          class=\"lazyload\"\n        \n                  alt=\"A Cosmic Conversation\"\n        \n        \n                                      \/>\n\n    \n    \n  \n  \n\n<\/div>\n  \n      <div class=\"image-caption\">\n          \n<div class=\"f--field f--description\">\n\n    \n  (Illustration: Pete Lloyd for USC Dornsife Magazine.)\n\n\n<\/div>\n    <\/div>\n  \n  <div class=\"text-wrapper\">\n          <nav aria-label=\"Breadcrumb\" class=\"breadcrumbs\">\n        <ul>\n                      <li><a href=\"\/news\/stories\/\">News<\/a><\/li>\n                      <li><a href=\"\/news\/stories\/\/?category=science-and-technology\">Science and Technology<\/a><\/li>\n                  <\/ul>\n      <\/nav>\n    \n              \n<div class=\"f--field f--page-title\">\n\n    \n  <h1>A Cosmic Conversation<\/h1>\n\n\n<\/div>\n    \n          <div class=\"subtitle\">\n            \n<div class=\"f--field f--description\">\n\n    \n  From the origins of the Big Bang to the composition of dark energy, dark matter and black holes, USC Dornsife cosmologists Vera Gluscevic and Elena Pierpaoli are searching for answers to the mysteries of the universe. <strong>[12\u00bc min read]<\/strong>\n\n\n<\/div>\n      <\/div>\n    \n           <strong class=\"author-field\"><span >By<\/span><a href=\"mailto:communication@dornsife.usc.edu\">Susan Bell<\/a><\/strong>\n    \n          <span class=\"post-date-field\">December 17, 2021<\/span>\n      <\/div>\n<\/div>\n\n\n  <\/div><\/div>\n\n  \n    \n\n\n\n\n\n\n<div\n  class=\"cc--component-container cc--social-share \"\n\n  \n  \n  \n  \n  \n  \n  >\n  <div class=\"c--component c--social-share\"\n    \n      >\n\n    \n  <div class=\"content-wrapper\">\n    <span class=\"a2a_kit a2a_kit_size_32 addtoany_list\" style=\"line-height: 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fill-rule=\"evenodd\" transform=\"translate(-6 -9)\"\/><\/svg>\n            <\/span>\n            <span class=\"a2a_label visually-hidden\">Email<\/span>\n          <\/a>\n                  <\/span>\n  <\/div>\n\n  <\/div><\/div>\n \n\n\n\n  \n    \n\n\n\n\n\n\n<div\n  class=\"cc--component-container cc--rich-text \"\n\n  \n  \n  \n  \n  \n  \n  >\n  <div class=\"c--component c--rich-text\"\n    \n      >\n\n    \n      \n<div class=\"f--field f--wysiwyg\">\n\n    \n  <p>In the last few decades, we have found answers to some of the biggest puzzles in astronomy and cosmology \u2014 thanks to the work of theoretical cosmologists like USC Dornsife\u2019s\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/dornsife.usc.edu\/cf\/phys\/faculty_display.cfm?person_ID=1091825\">Vera Gluscevic<\/a>\u00a0and\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/dornsife.usc.edu\/cf\/faculty-and-staff\/faculty.cfm?pid=1012532\">Elena Pierpaoli<\/a>, whose research aims to determine the composition and evolution of the universe. However, while cosmologists worldwide have made huge strides in recent years with the help of advanced probes such as satellites and space telescopes, many of the deepest mysteries of the universe still remain to be solved.<br \/>\n<img decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignleft\" src=\"\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/7\/migration-uploads\/354305659-acosmicconvo_instorya-3604.jpg\" \/><br \/>\nGluscevic, Gabilan Assistant Professor of\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/dornsife.usc.edu\/physics\/\">Physics and Astronomy<\/a>, combines the tools of theoretical astrophysics, particle physics and astronomical data analysis to explore dark matter, dark energy and processes that shaped the universe before the time of the first stars. Her research involves coming up with new ways of using objects and phenomena that we see in our universe throughout cosmic history \u2014 observables from the cosmic microwave background (CMB) radiation that comes to us almost from the time of the Big Bang to populations of dwarf galaxies around the Milky Way \u2014 in order to test the fundamental fabric of nature.<\/p>\n<p>The primary\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/dornsife.usc.edu\/labs\/elena-pierpaolis-web-page\/research\/\">research interests of Pierpaoli<\/a>, professor of physics and astronomy, are the CMB and the large-scale structure of the universe, in particular galaxy clusters. She uses observations to understand fundamental physical principles, such as how gravity works on large scales and the nature of dark energy and dark matter.<\/p>\n<p>Here, Gluscevic and Pierpaoli explain their research and discuss some of the recent breakthroughs in our understanding of the universe as well as cosmic conundrums, such as dark<br \/>\nenergy, dark matter and supermassive black holes, that still have cosmologists and astrophysicists scratching their heads.<\/p>\n<blockquote><p>\u201cVery shortly after the Big Bang, we believe there was a period when the expansion of the universe was highly accelerated. Right after that, all the particles that we know about \u2014 even those that may make us up \u2014 were created.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>\u2014 Elena Pierpaoli, professor of physics and astronomy<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p><strong>A BRIEF HISTORY OF THE UNIVERSE<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>VG:<\/strong>\u00a0As physicists and cosmologists, we use the tools of physics to try to understand the physical<br \/>\nlaws that govern our universe on the largest of scales, through time and space. We know that our universe began with a Big Bang almost 14 billion years ago. The universe started off small and very uniform, free of any lumps, bumps or structure.<\/p>\n<p><strong>EP:<\/strong>\u00a0Very shortly after the Big Bang, we believe there was a period when the expansion of the<br \/>\nuniverse was highly accelerated. Right after that, all the particles that we know about \u2014 even those that may make us up \u2014 were created.<\/p>\n<p><strong>VG:<\/strong>\u00a0There were no galaxies at first, just clumps of matter that were denser than their<br \/>\nsurroundings. From that primordial soup is where our own galaxies that we see around us today eventually originated, emerging billions of years ago from tiny kernels of dark and normal matter.<\/p>\n<p><strong>EP:\u00a0<\/strong>However, some very big questions about the origins of the universe still remain. For example, we know that at the center of most galaxies \u2014 including our own \u2014 there is a supermassive black hole.\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/www.nasa.gov\/mission_pages\/chandra\/multimedia\/black-hole-SagittariusA.html\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Sagittarius A*<\/a>, the black hole at the center of our own Milky Way, is equivalent to slightly more than 4 million solar masses. We don\u2019t exactly know how such huge black holes form, but we think they are probably not primordial, but formed at later times during the history of the cosmos.<\/p>\n<p><strong>VG:<\/strong>\u00a0When we look at the night sky, what\u2019s incredible is that everything we see \u2014 all the stars, galaxies, us, the planets \u2014 accounts for maybe only a few percent of everything there is in<br \/>\nour universe.<\/p>\n<p>Cosmologists made a major breakthrough in the last few decades in understanding that our universe is made primarily of some new substances that we don\u2019t yet understand \u2014 dark energy and dark matter. They\u2019re very different from each other. We know they\u2019re not made out of particles that we know and understand in particle physics and yet they decide what galaxies look like and what our universe is doing as a whole.<\/p>\n<p>What I do is try to understand how we can use the smallest of galaxies that we see around us in the universe today to rewind this movie and understand what subatomic particles \u2014 particles that are even tinier than an atom \u2014 were doing at these very first moments after the Big Bang. In doing so, I try to understand dark matter and dark energy.<\/p>\n<p><strong>EP<\/strong>: As Vera said, the dominant energy density of the universe appears to be dark matter and dark energy. This is what we understand when we apply Einstein\u2019s theory of relativity to interpret observations at all cosmological scales and distances. The validity of Einstein\u2019s<br \/>\ntheory has been tested in the past on scales from our Earth to the solar system. However, it\u2019s conceivable that the same laws don\u2019t hold as we move to larger and larger scales, so that we need to modify Einstein\u2019s theory.<\/p>\n<p>Technological advancements of the past decades allowed us to observe many more distant, extragalactic objects. Therefore, we now have the possibility of using these new and<br \/>\npowerful observations to revise and test the law of gravity on a very large scale \u2014 something that was previously impossible, even when I was in grad school, because our observations back then simply weren\u2019t powerful enough. Such theoretical changes, of course, would also have implications for our understanding of the existence of dark matter and dark energy in our universe.<\/p>\n<p><strong>HOW TIME BEGAN<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>VG<\/strong>: We understand spacetime and its evolution thanks to Einstein\u2019s general theory of relativity, which allowed us to figure out that there was a beginning of time. At that first moment, there was a massive expansion of the universe.<\/p>\n<p><strong>EP<\/strong>: It\u2019s important to remember that the Big Bang isn\u2019t\u00a0<em>why<\/em>\u00a0the universe formed, it\u2019s\u00a0<em>how<\/em>. If we imagine an explosion, we tend to think of some space where a bomb<br \/>\nexplodes, while the Big Bang essentially\u00a0<em>created<\/em>\u00a0space.<\/p>\n<p><strong>VG<\/strong>: To make this easier to understand, let\u2019s think of our universe as a two-dimensional universe \u2014 it\u2019s really four dimensional, but that\u2019s harder to envision \u2014 and the space is expanding like the rubber surface of a balloon expands while being inflated.<\/p>\n<p>This doesn\u2019t mean that our universe expanded into something else, into some space that existed before it and around it. Spacetime \u2014 all of it, what we see and what we cannot yet see \u2014 began at that moment, and has been stretching and growing ever since.<\/p>\n<p><strong>OBSERVING THE HORIZON OF THE UNIVERSE<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>EP<\/strong>: As Vera said, we know our universe began at a certain moment in time. According to our knowledge of physics, information can travel only as fast as the speed of light. This means we can only see up to a certain distance from us \u2014 what we call the horizon \u2014 which is the largest distance that could have been traveled by light from the beginning of time, in other words, from the Big Bang to now. This means there\u2019s a limit to what we can assess<br \/>\nbecause we can see only a given volume around us and not the entire universe. We don\u2019t know if the universe is infinite, or if it has other boundaries or peculiarities beyond the horizon: If these exist, we cannot see them.<\/p>\n<blockquote><p>\u201cDark energy is winning, it\u2019s becoming the most dominant thing in our universe, the one that decides what our universe as a whole is doing.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>\u2014 Vera Gluscevic, Gabilan Assistant Professor of Physics and Astronomy<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p>Despite our limitations in only being able to observe what is inside the horizon, there is a lot that we can learn from the volume of the universe that is within our reach. Some of the observed radiation \u2014 specifically the CMB radiation \u2014 was emitted close to the farthest edge of the horizon. Because the CMB radiation reaches us from very large distances and therefore we know it was emitted very early on, it informs us about moments in the history of the universe that were very close to the Big Bang. In this sense, the CMB is the most<br \/>\naccurate probe of early universe physics, and studying it is very helpful in understanding what was happening back then.<\/p>\n<p>One of the questions that we aim at understanding better from our study of the CMB is how inflation occurred and how it seeded the ripples in densities that later created the structures \u2014 galaxies, stars, etc. \u2014 we observe around us.<\/p>\n<p><strong>VG:\u00a0<\/strong>USC Dornsife\u2019s Department of Physics and Astronomy is an institutional partner in the international\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/simonsobservatory.org\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\">Simons Observatory Collaboration<\/a>\u00a0to build the next generation of CMB telescopes in Chile\u2019s Atacama Desert. This array of new-generation telescopes will help us observe the CMB in much greater detail than we\u2019ve ever been able to before. They may also provide information about possible new types of particles in our universe that we can\u2019t see in any other way.<\/p>\n<p><strong>EP:<\/strong>\u00a0And then there are other probes that are closer to us, typically, all the galaxies and structures that formed more recently. All those cosmological probes should point toward the same picture for the content, evolution and model of the universe, so part of our research is also to find the correct model that can match these very distant observables and those closer to us.<\/p>\n<p><strong>A BEAUTIFUL FOAM-LIKE STRUCTURE<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>VG:<\/strong>\u00a0Our universe currently has a lot of structure. Stars group into galaxies that group into larger collections of galaxies, sometimes clusters of galaxies. If you zoom out and look at our universe on the largest of scales, it resembles this beautiful foam-like structure of matter that forms big bubbles, with walls and filaments stretching between them. Wherever these filaments of matter cross, that\u2019s where you find most of the galaxies and clusters of galaxies.<\/p>\n<p>In global terms, we understand well enough how this structure forms to be able to program a computer to reproduce our universe by telling it how gravity works and then letting it figure out what the structure of the universe looks like today. The result is a good match for our observations, which means that our theory of gravity works fairly well \u2014 so long as we input the right amounts of matter.<\/p>\n<p>Although I would say the universe is extremely orderly and is described by several laws of physics that we understand, it\u2019s also disorderly in the sense that these laws reveal that there\u2019s much more matter in the universe than the stars and galaxies. They also reveal that the universe is doing this weird thing where it\u2019s expanding faster and faster as time goes on, as if something is inflating it \u2014 something beyond the normal substances that we understand in standard physics.<\/p>\n<p><strong>THE DARK SIDE<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>EP:<\/strong>\u00a0That brings us to dark energy \u2014 so-called because it typically doesn\u2019t interact much with light, but it does not behave as dark matter in terms of ruling the universe\u2019s expansion. It is the dominant component in the universe in terms of total energy density. At the moment, dark<br \/>\nenergy makes up 70%, maybe 25% is dark matter, and the remaining 3% to 5%, that\u2019s the stars, us, everything that we\u2019re used to envisioning when we think about the universe. So, dark energy is a very big deal indeed.<br \/>\n<img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignleft\" src=\"\/wp-content\/uploads\/sites\/7\/migration-uploads\/354305662-acosmicconvo_instoryb-3604.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"315\" height=\"490\" \/><br \/>\nThen there\u2019s dark matter, about which we also know very little. In fact, we just know one type of dark matter, the neutrino component \u2014 a neutral particle with a very small mass that rarely interacts with normal matter \u2014 which we\u2019ve been able to calculate comprises less than 10% of dark matter.<\/p>\n<p><strong>VG:<\/strong>\u00a0Evidence for both dark energy and dark matter comes from observations. There is six times more dark matter than normal matter in the universe and we\u2019re confident that it isn\u2019t any of the normal stuff we understand in particle physics. We do know that dark energy and dark matter don\u2019t require each other. There are theories, certainly, that try to link them together, but they behave so differently. Dark matter behaves like normal matter in that when the universe expands, we end up with a lower density of it. Whereas dark energy behaves dramatically differently.<\/p>\n<p>Let me explain. So, we all know that gravity pulls things together. The more massive you are, the more gravity you exert on other things. If I throw a ball up in the air, it goes up high, turns around and comes back down again. That\u2019s how gravity works. If I throw it really hard, it will go farther up. If I throw it with escape velocity \u2014 about 11 kilometers a second, the speed at which we launch rockets into interplanetary space \u2014 it\u2019s going to break off from the<br \/>\ngravitational grip of the Earth and continue floating into space with a constant velocity. What it\u2019s never going to do is break off from that gravitational grip and then speed up more and more as it goes farther and farther away. This would be crazy, and yet that is exactly what our universe is doing.<\/p>\n<p>At best, it should be just expanding with constant velocity, and, instead, the bigger it is, the faster it\u2019s expanding. This is what dark energy is doing \u2014 it\u2019s making the universe expand faster and faster.<\/p>\n<p>Another weird thing that we now understand about dark energy is that unlike normal matter \u2014 which decreases in density when the volume of space increases \u2014 the density of dark energy remains the same when the volume of space increases. It\u2019s almost as if the more space there is, the more of the stuff \u2014 whatever it is \u2014 there is. And so, dark energy is winning, it\u2019s becoming the most dominant thing in our universe, the one that decides what our universe as a whole is doing.<\/p>\n<p><strong>A MATTER OF SOUL<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><strong>EP:<\/strong>\u00a0Why did I become a cosmologist? It was the intellectual challenge that drew me into this field when I was young, and<br \/>\neven in my short life, I\u2019ve lived through exciting changes. Thanks to the data we can now access, cosmology has become one of the fastest evolving fields in physics.<\/p>\n<p>Sometimes I\u2019m asked, \u2018What would you say to people who argue this research is a waste of time, energy and money?\u2019 It\u2019s true there\u2019s no direct practical application for what we study, but our research does answer fundamental questions of humankind, questions that have preoccupied people since civilization began: What\u2019s in the universe? Where are we in the universe? Was there a beginning and will there be an end? And so, in that sense, it\u00a0<em>is<\/em>\u00a0important because there\u2019s also the soul \u2014 not only practical things are relevant.<\/p>\n<p>I would also argue that I don\u2019t think Edison and Tesla were actually thinking of lighting up the whole planet when they were discovering electricity. So, we never know!<\/p>\n<p><strong>VG:<\/strong>\u00a0I totally second Elena\u2019s Edison and Tesla argument. In addition, our universe is so beautiful. At the same time, it\u2019s completely mysterious. But while we don\u2019t yet understand dark matter and dark energy, we do have the mathematical tools to explore and dig deeper and understand how our universe began, to know that there was a beginning and to figure out the age of it. It\u2019s a whole field for exploration, so, to me, having those tools and that challenge is incredibly empowering.<\/p>\n<p>After all, understanding the universe \u2014 who doesn\u2019t want to do that?<\/p>\n<p><em>Additional reporting by Stephen Koenig<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n<\/div>\n\n\n  <\/div><\/div>\n\n\n\n  \n        \n  \n    \n\n\n\n\n\n\n<div\n  class=\"cc--component-container cc--article-related-stories \"\n\n  \n  \n  \n  \n  \n  \n  >\n  <div class=\"c--component c--article-related-stories\"\n    \n      >\n\n    \n  <div class=\"inner-wrapper\">\n    \n                  <article>\n              \n<div class=\"f--field f--cta-title\">\n\n    \n  <h3>\n          <a href=\"https:\/\/dornsife.usc.edu\/news\/stories\/cosmic-measurements-of-gravity-support-dark-matter\/\" \n                        class=\"\" \n      >Scientists test a fundamental rule of gravity on cosmic scales \u2014 and it holds up<\/a>\n      <\/h3>\n\n\n<\/div>\n        <\/article>\n              <article>\n              \n<div class=\"f--field f--cta-title\">\n\n    \n  <h3>\n          <a href=\"https:\/\/dornsife.usc.edu\/news\/stories\/santec-usa-corporation-funds-fellowships-for-physics-research\/\" \n                        class=\"\" \n      >New fellowship empowers future physicists to explore quantum frontier<\/a>\n      <\/h3>\n\n\n<\/div>\n        <\/article>\n              <article>\n              \n<div class=\"f--field f--cta-title\">\n\n    \n  <h3>\n          <a href=\"https:\/\/dornsife.usc.edu\/news\/stories\/why-are-some-stars-always-visible-while-others-come-and-go-with-seasons\/\" \n                        class=\"\" \n      >Why are some stars always visible while others come and go with the\u00a0seasons?<\/a>\n      <\/h3>\n\n\n<\/div>\n        <\/article>\n            <\/div>\n\n\n  <\/div><\/div>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>From the origins of the Big Bang to the composition of dark energy, dark matter and black holes, USC Dornsife cosmologists Vera Gluscevic and Elena Pierpaoli are searching for answers to the mysteries of the universe. <strong>[12\u00bc min read]<\/strong><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":52,"featured_media":1175,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"footnotes":""},"categories":[16],"tags":[320,143,216,321],"class_list":["post-1172","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-science-and-technology","tag-elena-pierpaoli","tag-faculty","tag-physics-and-astronomy","tag-vera-gluscevic"],"acf":[],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v27.1.1 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/product\/yoast-seo-wordpress\/ -->\n<title>A Cosmic Conversation<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"From the origins of the Big Bang to the composition of black holes, USC Dornsife cosmologists are searching for answers to the mysteries of the universe.\" \/>\n<meta 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